Robert Applebaum is the Founder and Executive Director of Forgive Student Loan Debt. This movement was started on Facebook by Applebaum in January 2009.
CCJ: Hi, Robert. Thanks for joining me at Education Matters for a discussion about Forgive Student Loan Debt.
RMA: No, no. Thank you, Cryn. It's my pleasure to take advantage of this opportunity to speak with you about this movement.
CCJ: Forgive Student Loan Debt was started in January of 2009 as a Facebook group, correct? As you are aware, I am a supporter of this movement and have spent a lot of time discussing and debating the issues around it with a number of individuals online and in person. One of the things I like to point out is understanding the historical context of this movement. That's to say: when you began to think about creating a Facebook group, you were incensed by the bailout that had taken place on Wall Street. Is that correct?
RMA: That's exactly right. Actually, I remember quite vividly that, on the morning of January 29, 2009, I was watching CNN's coverage of the debate over President Obama's stimulus plan (The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009). News had just broken about billions of dollars worth of bonuses that were still being doled out to incompetent executives of bailed-out companies, lavish corporate retreats in tropical locales and clueless, Marie Antoinette-like office redecorations for the very individuals and corporations responsible for the meltdown of the economy. Throughout the debate, after we had already committed $700 billion under the TARP program earlier in the fall, the only mention of relief for the middle class was whether to hand out one-time $400 tax rebate checks again or to cut payroll taxes amounting to an extra $44 per month in the average worker's paycheck. (Congress ultimately settled on the latter). Nine days earlier, the nation had just inaugurated a new president whose entire campaign was premised on the notion of change, yet the entire debate in Washington centered around 30 year old concepts of trickle-down economics - literally throwing trillions of taxpayer dollars at the banks, financial institutions, auto industry, insurance companies and other irresponsible actors whose reckless practices brought our economy to the brink of collapse.
CCJ: Tell us more about the timing of your decision and why you decided to promote this platform.
RMA: Prior to January of this year, I had never written a blog or otherwise sought to publish my own personal thoughts on a topic of national discourse. While listening to the debate, it occurred to me, as a student loan debtor, that if my student loan debt was suddenly forgiven, it would have a very similar effect as enacting a major tax cut - one that would result in my having an extra $500 per month, every month, with which I could go out and spend on sectors of the economy that were ailing. It's important to note that I have never defaulted on my student loans and that I'm perfectly content paying back what I borrowed, however; if the goal was to get Americans to start spending money again, I thought that my idea about student loan debt forgiveness would more quickly and effectively accomplish that than an extra $44 per month in my paycheck. Further, I believed that handing over trillions of dollars to the banks who, ultimately, just hoarded the cash anyway, would do nothing to spur consumer spending - which, under normal circumstances, accounts for 70% of the U.S. GDP. Therefore, I decided to put my thoughts down in the form of an essay that became the central premise of the Facebook group "Cancel Student Loan Debt to Stimulate the Economy."
CCJ: There are other movements that are similar to your own, but these other groups have not received as much attention as yours. How do you stand apart from other groups and why is it worth joining yours to support this movement?
RMA: Within hours of my creating the Facebook group with my essay in its original form (it has evolved over time in response to members' suggestions and input), it became evident that I was not the first person to come up with the idea of stimulating the economy through student loan forgiveness. Others had proposed the concept before, unbeknownst to me, but either didn't explain or promote the idea with the same level of detail or vigor that I had. One look at the proposal today is all the proof one needs to conclude that I'm not one for brevity. The success that ensued is more a testament to the intellect of the people who have joined the group than my own powers of persuasion. I think that the success my proposal has enjoyed over the past 7 months or so is directly related to the level of detail with which I make the argument for student loan debt forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus. On its face, the title of the group itself is incendiary - without ever reading the actual proposal, many form an immediate opinion either for or against the concept, but then slowly come around to realize that what I've put forth has an element of common sense to it that is so lacking in many other ideas floating about. So, while I'm unable to state with certainty as to why the movement I started took off the way it did while similar other ones didn't, I suspect it has a lot to do with the power of a clear, comprehensive, detailed argument in favor of a proposal that would have an immediate positive effect on the lives of millions of Americans saddled with student loan debt.
CCJ: Many people who are aware of your group or follow you know that you're an attorney. For those readers who are not familiar with your educational background, could you share your story as it relates to this movement?
RMA: Sure. I began attending Fordham University School of Law in 1995 with the intention of using my law degree as a foundation for a career in politics - perhaps even elected office. Upon graduating in 1998, my personal politics had changed profoundly and, after three years, like so many others, I found myself following a different path than the one I had originally envisioned when I was 21 years old. My legal education was financed completely through borrowing the maximum amounts of both subsidized and unsubsidized Federal Stafford Loans, as well as an additional $10,000 from Fordham's revolving student loan program. Thus, on the day I graduated from law school, I owed $65,000 in principal. Beginning in 1999, I began serving as an Assistant District Attorney in Brooklyn, NY - one of the most rewarding, exciting and meaningful jobs in which I've ever served, where my starting salary was just $36,000 per year. Due to the high cost of rent in New York, I necessarily placed my loans into forbearance because I simply could not afford to repay my loans at that low salary. Over the next five years, I watched the amount I owed in principal grow by over $20,000, thanks to capitalized interest. Upon realizing that I was committing myself to a lifetime of intractable debt, I made the unfortunate decision to leave a job I loved for one in the private sector so that I could start paying off what I had borrowed. I spent the next five years working for a private sector law firm where I earned enough money to make five years of regular monthly payments on my student loans, although the work was significantly less rewarding and I no longer felt that I was making a valuable contribution to society; rather, I was working merely to repay Sallie Mae. Today, despite devoting five years of my legal career at a low-paying public interest job, followed by five years of regular payments on my student loans, the amount I owe in principal is $96,000 - approximately $31,000 more than on the day I graduated over 11 years ago. That is the perspective from which I came when I originally proposed forgiving student loans as a means of economic stimulus. It was not because I didn't want to pay back what I had borrowed - I did. I had spent five years working hard to serve my community as an ADA and an additional five years working hard in the private sector to repay my loans and despite all that, my debt only increased by tens of thousands of dollars. After starting the Facebook group, I quickly came to learn that my personal student loan story was not only not unique, but relatively benign compared to so many other struggling members of an entirely new socio-economic class for the 21st Century - one I've dubbed the "educated poor."
CCJ: You obviously mentioned above that you have student loans. Many people who immediately dismiss this movement say things like, "it's your responsibility to pay," or "you shouldn't have gone to an expensive school," etc. It's those knee-jerk remarks that imply that students who are in bad financial situations are free-loaders and deserve what has happened to them. How do you respond to these types of remarks, and how can you and your supporters work on changing these beliefs?
RMA: In the proposal itself, I admit to being a "personal responsibility" type of person who, under normal circumstances, believes that people do have a responsibility to pay back what they owe. These, however, are not normal circumstances. We are in the middle of an economic crisis so severe, the likes of which nobody truly knows how to fix. While there are similarities to the Great Depression, the underlying conditions that gave rise to the economic collapse were very different this time around and, as such, we're essentially in uncharted waters. Anyone claiming to know "the answer" to fixing our economic problems is either lying or insane. The federal government is literally spending trillions of dollars to try and put the economy back on stable footing and most of it is through trial and error. For a fraction of the cost (approximately $550 Billion), every single American shackled by student loan debt, both public and private, could be freed up to start spending hundreds or, in some cases, thousands of extra dollars every month on the very sectors of the economy that are ailing. The federal government is currently handing pver blank checks to these institutions and, therefore, my point is that if we're going to be spending such enormous amounts of taxpayer dollars anyway, why not do it in a way that has the best chance of actually making a difference in terms of turning the economy around? All of the arguments against the proposal that are couched in personal responsibility terms completely miss the point of what I'm hoping to achieve - rebuilding the economy from the bottom up, reflecting the realities of our 21st Century economy. I am the first person to admit that what I've proposed isn't "fair." Some people would benefit - others wouldn't. That, however, is the nature of democracy. I don't have children, yet my tax dollars pay for public schools. I don't collect Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid, yet I pay FICA taxes. No governmental action is ever truly "fair." The relevant question, therefore, isn't whether this proposal is fair but, rather, whether it would achieve the goal of stimulating the economy. I believe that it would.
CCJ: The group obviously has a lot of followers. What is the current number on Facebook?
RMA: As of this moment, 220,474.
CCJ: That's fantastic! But what are some of the hurdles you're facing as the group's founder?
RMA: Nobody is more surprised by the sheer number of people who have joined the group than I am, not to mention all of the others who have read about the proposal in other forums. As the group's founder, I've obviously encountered some fierce opposition to what I've proposed. I've been called everything from a Socialist and a Marxist to an idiot and a snake-oil salesman. Anyone who actively follows the group knows that I routinely engage in spirited debate with both supporters and detractors and, to the extent that such debates remain civil, I'm happy to have them because, in the end, whether one supports the idea or not, they're still talking about student loans and the deleterious effect they can have on millions of Americans. Thus, while I've become a lightening rod for criticism, I've gotten thousands of people to talk and think about the problems inherent in higher educational financing. Therefore, as long as people are focused on the problems and working towards coming up with novel solutions to fix them, I'm happy to face the slings and arrows. This has never been about me personally. As I've stated, this all began as an alternative proposal to economic stimulus - nothing else. That it's morphed into a full-fledged movement about reforming educational financing is the result of the involvement and concerns expressed by hundreds of thousands of real people facing serious economic hardships as a result of taking on what they were told was "good debt." As fewer and fewer jobs are available for people with advanced degrees, the value of the educations they've obtained has diminished, but not the accompanying debt.
CCJ: What are ways in which the group can help to promote Forgive Student Loan Debt? Moreover, what are the supporters doing to establish a public dialogue that pushes this forward?
RMA: My focus all along has been on raising awareness and getting people to talk. Facebook has been an incredibly effective medium, without which, none of this would have been possible. Every time someone writes an article or blogs about this movement, membership in the group spikes and discussions ensue. From the beginning, I've encouraged all members to write their elected representatives to consider student loan debt forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus - I've even included links, email addresses and sample letters to make it easy. I also routinely encourage members to re-post articles and discussions to their own profiles so as to get everyone involving their friends in the discussion. The more people that join, the more letters that are written, the more dialogues that are created, the louder our collective voices and the greater our chances of being heard.
CCJ: Thank you again for joining me at Education Matters, Robert. I hope this interview serves to inform more people about Forgive Student Loan Debt.
RMA: You're welcome, Cryn. Thank you for inviting me to contribute to your new blog.
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